How can we get more women in the game? It’s a question often asked by poker pundits. While venues and tours work on answering that question, another outlet is asking a slightly different question – how can we use poker to embolden women in the real world.
That outlet is PokerDivas, which is dedicated to helping professional women (and men) become bold and decisive at the conference table through the skills they acquire at the poker table.
As they say on their website, pokerdivas.com: “Did you know that you’ve been playing poker your whole life even if you’ve never played a hand of cards? It’s not about gambling, it’s about building confidence, learning to read people, becoming a better negotiator, and being assertive and bold.”
PokerDivas was created in 2006 by Ellen Leikind, an entrepreneur and corporate innovator. Her mission is to show how you can win in life and business using the strategies of poker even if you have never played the game.
Leikind, who wrote the book Poker Woman: How to Win at Love, Life, and Business using the Principles of Poker, has been carrying on the mission for the past 17 years, making it one of the longest-running women-focused poker initiatives in the history of the game.
Q&A with Ellen Leikind
PokerNews recently had the opportunity to chat with Leikind about PokerDivas:
PokerNews: You began playing poker as a teenager. What got you interested in the game? What made you revisit it?
Leikind: My mom taught me poker when I was a kid. Instead of baking and cooking after school we played poker. Back then it was 5-card draw and 7-Card Stud. I got back to the poker table after taking a hiatus from 15 years in corporate America. I finally had some free time and I love cards so I looked for a poker game. Believe it or not, I found one on Craigslist that was run by a woman. It took me three months to actually get the nerve to show up. It was eight guys, the host, and myself.
What inspired you to start PokerDivas after years of having another very successful career launching over a billion dollars in successful beauty products?
I started PokerDivas 15 years ago because I saw how women were being excluded from Poker much like they were from golf. That was very obvious in Corporate America. Golf was the sport du jour and Poker was up and coming in the same way. After attending a Poker PR networking event with less than a hand full of women in a roomful of 100, I said I am going to start a company — Poker for professional women.
I saw how the game gave me confidence, got me more comfortable taking risks, and gave me access to people I would not normally come into contact with. Poker is a boys’ club much like Corporate America and I love empowering women with a male-dominated sport. It feels great to be a pioneer in empowering professional women with this game.
There’s been an ebb and flow to poker-you came into this business in the post-Moneymaker flush peak of poker. Now there’s increased in-person demand at tournaments after the pandemic eased up its restrictions. How do you see the “business” of poker progressing in 2023?
People definitely want to get out and play live. You see that in the casinos, card rooms and we see it with our corporate clients. The great thing about the game is that everyone has access to it. Live and virtually. I think interest will continue to grow.
We’ve spoken about how golf was a prime networking arena that women didn’t necessarily have access to in 2005-06, and poker is similar, shall we say, “lost” opportunity for women to build relationships with potential work partners, or other business opportunities. Do you see your company and your credo as a way of opening up that opportunity to other women, as well as in the corporate venue?
Our PokerDivas program will definitely open the opportunity for more women to participate in the game. You don’t need to be a pro to play and enjoy it. Having the basic skills and confidence to sit at the table is what’s important. It gives you access to people and a great way to network and socialize. Many business opportunities have been made at the Poker table.
How’ve you witnessed the evolution or stagnation of women in poker?
I feel this year has seen a quiet, seismic shift-do you feel that with corporate culture as well? There has been more of an effort to be inclusive of women in the game and to make Poker and the Corporate world more female-friendly. Special events geared toward women have been plentiful and are a good start.
The question becomes is it for show or is there a real interest in integrating women into the game? There have to be meaningful efforts made after these women’s events to create changes that are impactful and produce a long-term inclusive environment at the poker table and the conference table. One-and-done events are just not going to do it.
The Muck: Why Don’t More Women Play Poker?
For many years, women have been seen as an untapped market for poker, but the numbers haven’t shifted much, until the WPT Championship. Do you see their business model as one to aspire to for other tournaments?
That is true, it is an untapped market. The number of women playing big poker events remains in the 4-5% range. Pretty close to the 8% of female CEO’s, we see in the Fortune 500. Having said that, just because women are not playing in big tourneys doesn’t mean they are not in the game.
There is so much to be learned from poker like reading people, dealing with different personalities, learning to have confidence and being the bettor, along with connecting and having fun. They may prefer to play for different reasons than winning a big tournament. Whether online, in small home games, or attending charity tournaments.
Do you see women as more naturally risk-adverse, or is that a condition of our culture? Is this part of the reason you see poker as a tool to encourage more risk-taking, more aggression, and asserting our power as women?
I’ve traveled around the world talking about this, in seminars and in my book Poker Woman, How to Win in Love, Life, and Business using the Principles of Poker. I think most women would benefit by becoming more frequent risk-takers. I see it at our co-ed PokerDivas Teambuilding and Leadership corporate events. Women go all in less frequently, bet in smaller amounts and bluff less.
It is likely a combination of culture, how we are brought up and wiring. I’m not talking about reckless risk taking just for the adrenaline rush but calculated risks with good odds and high upside. Playing poker helps people get comfortable taking risks. That’s why I am so passionate about getting women into the poker mindset and learning to bet on themselves.
Your mission with PokerDivas seems to be to help other women access the skills and prowess necessary to succeed in business, negotiation, targeted risk assessment, and helping access and harness their own worth in the business field. How’s this company helped make this mission a reality and who taught you those skills in your life?
Yes. The PokerDivas program has empowered many women to take their seat at any table and get what they want and are worth. Learning to play to win as opposed to avoid losing. Strength versus fear. We have worked with hundreds of companies and tens of thousands of women to teach them the strategy of the game and give them a taste of what it’s like to sit at the poker table.
Our program has changed the odds for women in their favor. We have many success stories of women asking for promotions, engaging in and winning negotiations, writing books, starting businesses, and going out and taking risks that pay off. And it goes beyond professionally – through the years, I’ve heard from many people who have participated in my events that they used these strategies in their personal lives. Whether it was starting and ending relationships, negotiating with their kids, parents and landlords, or making life changes.
On a personal level for me, it was poker strategy that gave me the confidence and skills to take the leap from Corporate America to entrepreneurship. My mom taught me the game and my dad was always pushing me to speak up, go after what I wanted and play to win. He had a poker mindset even though he never played the game.
*Images courtesy of PokerDivas.
Executive Editor U.S.
Executive Editor US, PokerNews Podcast co-host & 2013 WSOP Bracelet Winner.
Editor
Christina is a Las Vegas-based freelance writer who discovered poker at the age of twelve. She’s been a contributor to PokerNews since 2022.